Re: punks vs. hippies (was shmuck explained)

[Ron Jacobs <rjacobs>]

At 09:26 AM 2/4/98 -0800, you wrote:
>anthonyr wrote:
>
>> I got it. They're really hippies, and you're a punk. No argument there.
>> But then, Patti Smith doesn't seem like much of a punk, either,
>> nowadays. Was she ever, then, by that distinction? (The distinction
>> being, if you show signs of hippieness, you can't be a punk.) Are
>> Hippies and Punks mutually exculsive? I didn't know that. Please explain
>> again.
>
>Wayne Kramer talked about punk in "Please Kill Me".  Don't have it at hand
>but he said he started seeing articles on Punk Rock while in jail, and he
>flushed them down the toilet, because in jail "punk" is someone who gets
>raped, and he didn't want to be known as a punk.
>
>Anyway aside from the flames there's the kernel of an interesting discussion
>here:  what are differences and similarities between hippies and punks.
>Ed seems to take the Johnny Thunders line, saying punks hate hippies, and
>it seems like that's based on the hippie attitude of peace and love and
>passivity.  Punks were different because they were aggressive and hard-edged.
>
>There's also the class issue.  At least in England, punk was a working class
>thing and hippies were middle class.  Mostly.  In the US class is harder to
>discern and harder to discuss.
>
>But there's so much the same in the two groups.  Like the ripped jeans and
>not taking baths and sleeping anywhere.  Like the sense of alternative anti-
>fashion that became fashion.  Like the "fuck the establishment" attitude.
>If you look at pictures of Patti & Robert Mapplethorpe together, or any of
>the PSG throughout the 70's, they look a lot more like hippies than punks.
>Joey Ramone looks & dresses a lot more like, say, Jerry Garcia, than Sid
>Vicious.
>
>I know those two groups had a lot of differences and hated each other but
>looking back from the perspective of 20 years later, they look like two parts
>of the same movement, sort of like Civil Rights protesters of one era and
>Black Power and Weather Underground militants of the next era.
>
>- Mitch
>
I lived in the Bay Area from 1977-1985--peak of the punk scene there and
always believed the punk vs. hippie thing was a media creation.  My life
was on the street 24 hours a day (Telegraph Ave in berkeley and Haight in
SF) and I considered myself a freak/yippie type.  I got the shit kicked out
of me once at a Stranglers show but that was primarily because I had long
hair and was too close to the stage (I was very high).  Life on the street
was pretty much the same for both groups--cops harassing you, tourists
wanting to buy dope from you, and lots of pretty young women sharing their
time(not being sexist just truthful).  To be honest, I never particualry
cared for most punk music, but loved Patti from day one.  Her shows out
there had the familiar mix of subcultures present at most bay area shows I
went to.  Other bands that attracted a mixed hippie/punk crowd were the
Dead Kennedys, Flipper, Black Flag, and a couple real local groups whose
names I can't recall.  
There were some hippies who hated punks but many of them eventually cut all
their hair off, gave away their tiedyes and flowing skirts and got into the
leather and safety pin trip....

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