[2] apologies for comments on 'punk'

["j.BOLt SThAR eNYCh" <eltyger>]

0029 EST // Sun 01 Feb 98 // BklnNYC
                                     
What's to Apologize for?? Your View is Probably the Majority.
                                      
****************************************************************
>From: dwdudic (luther)
>To: babel
>Subject: apologies for comments on 'punk'
>Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:14:44 GMT
                                                   
>On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:45:46 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
>
>>	And (here comes a flame :-) ), what was the Ramones 
>>>real place in "Punk"?  I actually see their role as kinda 
>>>negative, because their music became the stereotype of 
>>>"punk" that was loaded onto my generation, and NOT Patti, 
>>>T Heads, etc.!!!
                                               
     ** I See what You mean. Still, Patti, Television, T-Heads, 
        Blondie,... had their Measure of Success - even 'tho 
        *Not* as "Punks". 
        The Ramones *Were* Punk - The First to be labelled as 
        such (Put it that way). 
        All of them were Great though, just Different from 
        one-another.
                                           
>	I was afraid this was going to happen.  Yes, I, unlike 
>most of in my generation, it seems, have a sense of history.  
>I have read "from the Velvets to the VoiVOids", watched the 
>history of rock n roll (both of them!) on the History of punk 
>several times through (always watch the Patti footage before 
>I perform, in fact) so  I KNOW that she was part of the 
>New York Scene.
                                                       
     ** They all were - and of *Course* there was more than a 
        little Cameraderie asd Fraternization going on in the 
        early days, say pre-1976. 1976 was sort of a transition 
        year. Patti was on tour a lot, or in the Studio - She 
        didn't Play CBGBs that year; Other folks were beginning 
        to get out of town more; Crowds were getting bigger and 
        more of them were strangers...Patti did a quick tour in 
        Great Britain in the Spring of 76 - just weeks before 
        The Pistols and the Clash first exploded...
                                              
   Heylin's Book is Great! (If a little sketchy with 
   Sources and Attributions):
                                            
        Clinton Heylin, 
            *From the Velvets to the Voidoids /
                      A Pre-Punk History for a Post-Punk World*
            (C)1993 Clinton Heylin
        pb, The Penguin Group, Penguin Books USA, Inc, New York
                                           
   But You Gotta also Read (Even Worse on Dates, Sources, 
   and Attributions - with lots of "excerpts from 
   unpublished Interviews" - but I mostly believe Legs: I 
   Saw him there night after night.):
                                          
        Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain,
            *Please Kill Me / 
                          The Uncensored Oral History of Punk*
            (C)1996 Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain
        pb, The Penguin Group, Penguin Putnam Inc, New York
                                               
   Jayne (Wayne) County has a Great book out now (in which She 
   says a few things about Patti in those Early days):

            *Man Enough to be a Woman*
            (C)1995 Jayne County (with Rupert Smith)
        pb, Serpent's Tail, 180 Varick Street, New York
                                              
   There is also (with a number of quotes from Lenny Kaye):
                                         
        Clinton Heylin,
            *Bootleg /
            The Secret History of the Other Recording Industry*
            (C)1994 Clinton Heylin
        pb, St. Martin's Press, New York
                                         
   And also (Centered on Great Britain, but also covering
   - Somewhat - New York City; A monthly, even daily, diary
   of what bands were Playing where; Recording where....
   Unfortune8ly, it isn't really *Complete*; Many gigs are
   not listed. Still.... Basic Patti-Coverage, but He Knows
   She's Different.):
                             
        George Gimarc.
            *Punk Diary: 1970 - 1979*
            (C)1994 George Gimarc
        pb, St. Martin's Press, New York

   And while I'm at it (I Intend to Start a Video-Page on 
   babelogue - Let me Herewith Solicit data from all - and I'll 
   start with these, which have Fine Patti Smith Coverage):
                                                          
        Robert Palmer,
            *Rock'n'Roll: An Unruly History* - 10 Hours
                (There is a Book by Palmer to Accompany this.)

            (C)1995 Robert Palmer/PBS
        Video, Produced by PBS & Robert Palmer
               - 9 (Punk) and 10 (HipHop/Rap)
                                  
        Warner/Time-Life,
            *The History of Rock 'N' Roll* - 10 Hours
            (C) 1995 Time-Life Video & Television and 
                     Warner Bros.
        Video, Written, Produced and Directed by Ted Haimes
               - 9 (Punk)
                                                
>	My point is just that 'punk' as it was defined for my 
>generation was not the socio/artistic movement that it was, 
>on both sides of the Atlantic, but as "loud guitars 
>indifferently played", which the Ramones were the most widely 
>acknowledged purveyors of. 
>	(Personally, I prefer the Velvets or the Stooges 
(Patti connection: John Cale produced stooges and her) to the 
Ramones.)
                                   
        ** Thanks for Mentioning Iggy/Stooges - A Proto-"Punk"
           f'sure - as were Velvet Underground, Modern Lovers,
           New York Dolls, Johnny Thunders/Heartbreakers - all
           pre-"punk" (pre-1975); As Heylin records at length.
                               
           But Generally not What has come to be Considered as 
           the "Punk" Sound..., as You Note.

>>Maybe they became a bit cartoony in the 90s...
>       Hey, the "cartoony" Ramones is all I've known!!
                                            
        ** Shit y'all! The Ramones were "Cartoony" from Day-1!
           Listen to "Blitzkreig Bop". Their Lyrics were 
           Hilarious (as were those of Cramp's) and not at all 
           relevant to SocialIssues (unlike many of the British 
           Chaps). Nevertheless their Performances, and 
           Stage-Presence gave them a bit of an edge.
                                           
           I must admit I haven't listened much in the 90s; 
           Perhaps they've played all the Variations...
                                                      
>>The Ramones, like Patti, helped kill the bullshit of the 60s 
>>and change the face of music forever...
>	Yeah, but I think it was bad prog-rock (anything but 
>King Crimson) that was the target...
                                    
        ** I Agree with You. And I think they Demolished it.
                                      
           Lenny for sure, and I think Patti as well, have 
           Never been quite as "Anti-Hippy" as some folx 
           would like (I will say IMO, to avoid having to
           Cite References. I think this Info is well known.).
                                                    
***************************************************************
                                 
      Adieu,
                              
--//
eLTyger
--//
/*RESPECT FOR THE ELECTRON(S)*/
--//
/*SACRED LIGHTNING/ DANCE THE WORLD*/